The Police State

Just when i thought there was nothing to your police state argument i came across this. I guess I will have to keep my head out of the sand from now on.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/04/AR2008060402205_pf.html

Good story. Using tasers are just one way we are turning into a police state. Thanks for posting this.

"Incredibly, there has still been nothing done that would prevent a group to make another one. Fertilizer is easy to get, so is fuel. It is very, very, scary..."

My question to you is this;

What do you expect to be done? Ban fertilizer? Diesel fuel?

The most effective counter measure would be for the state to avoid actions which might inspire anyone else to do what Tim McVeigh did. The state even provided the philosophy which permitted McVeigh to justify what he did to himself; the well worn doctrine of "collateral damage" which has been used to justify virtually every state sponsored act of terror against unarmed civilians in the 20th century.

Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind..............

or as the bard put it;

"If it were done when ‘tis done, then ‘twere well
It were done quickly. If th’ assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success—that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all!—here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We’d jump the life to come. "

The explosions were about the same as far as shaking the building.

There are alot of unanswered questions about the day. This site has some of the questions http://www.holology.com/mcveigh.html

http://www.infowars.com/?p=2607

Kurt Nimmo
Infowars
June 9, 2008

For Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, “stop and frisk” without probable cause is not enough. He apparently hankers to turn the “City of Brotherly Love” into a police state, based on the District of Criminals model.

“During his primary campaign, Mayor Michael Nutter called for a crime emergency which would have banned hanging out on street corners in certain neighborhoods and limit traffic,” reports Metro. “After similar tactics were enacted by Washington, D.C. police this weekend in a violent neighborhood there — including checkpoints where drivers had to show police ID or otherwise prove they belonged in the neighborhood — a Philadelphia police official said checkpoints may still have a future here.”

In order to render the Fourth Amendment null and void, all a mayor need do is declare a “crime emergency,” set up “Targeted Enforcement Zones” and throw a bunch of police into “violent neighborhoods.”




Nutter’s nutty and unconstitutional tactics may drive crime inside, but it has also prevented citizens from doing the most mundane of things, such as playing cards in the park. “It’s already tough out here just to play cards in the park,” resident Will Durham told Metro while playing a game of hearts with three friends. “I already feel like we don’t have enough civil rights out here.”

Mr. Durham should realize “civil rights” are granted by government and can thus be taken away, while constitutional rights are innate. So long as the people unfortunate enough to live in Philly’s “violent neighborhoods” — violent primarily because the government has made certain substances illegal — and continue to believe in this government created ruse about “civil rights,” they are going to lose the ability to walk down the street unmolested or play cards in the park without the cops dogging them, asking for ID, conducting “stop and frisk” violations of the Fourth Amendment.

If residents allow this sort of business, they can expect to have the government decide if they can walk down the street with “legitimate purpose.” It was similar in the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, dictatorships and police states far and wide. Now it has come to D.C. and maybe soon Philadelphia.

How long before it comes to your neighborhood?

I understand your complaint to a point, and definitely feel sorry that our society has become as it is. Sorry that people can't sit in the park and play cards, or feed the birds, or just do nothing. All valid complaints, we are supposed to be a free society. Many veterans have protected these rights...however,

From what I'm reading, your complaints are that the government is unjustly putting upon innocent people in their efforts to curb criminal behavior. I would like to hear a solution to resolving the crime issues aggressively as the public demands, yet not inconvienience law abiding citizens.

All I see from your posts madcow is pointing out the problem, no suggestion for a solution? I'm not picking on you, but I try to see things from a realistic place. I understand that in high crime areas, areas of extreme violence to include drug dealing, shootings, stabbings, etc. 80-90% of the people on the streets are the suspects. The remaining 10-20% are the unfortunate folks who live there. My guess is that of that group, there are a few who enjoy or reap profits from the crime. I would believe that those left would welcome the aggressive enforcement that you find offensive.

This is kind of like the old saying, "damned if you do, and damned if you don't".

What if the government said, "Aaahhh, to hell with it", threw up there hands and allowed the criminals to have their way. I'll tell you what would happen, no I don't think I should have to. The government would just be a bunch of no account S.O.B.'s for doing nothing. They'd like to, but they might offend someone...

Jim,

At least humor the public and attempt to provide some accountability. For someone to purchase 40,000+ pounds of fertilizer, shouldn't they at least have a farm? Wouldn't it be pretty simple in today's techno age to confirm that if John Doe from Coshocton, Ohio makes that large of a purchase, that someone could verify that he owns property and is legitimately using it? I know, I know,...civil rights are going to be violated Well what about the civil rights for those working, in day care at, or doing business that horrible day in Oklahoma City. What if the government made a statement that day that they apoligized if they made someone mad, and promised not to do it again and didn't pursue McVeigh for fear he may do it again...that is what I gather from "The most effective counter measure would be for the state to avoid actions which might inspire anyone else to do what Tim McVeigh did." The government should concern themselves with hurting EVERYONE'S feelings? Does that include a thief? A rapist? Don't pursue them, they could become offended...may even blow something up...

I'm trying not to rant, but I blame the criminals for creating these situations...not the police who must respond. So, I'd really like to hear what mad, jim, or lead would do to resolve this problem.

amazedbydumb you make good points and I do not have a solution and I really do not believe we are even getting close to a police state as I have stated before the American people would not stand for it. How ever what bothers me is checking of I'd s when you are entering a neighborhood and these so called DUI check points that also bothers me. But by no means do I think the police state is anywhere near coming to America anytime soon.

I wish I had the answer to the problems we are facing. What brothers me is just how far will we let our rights be taken from us. Maybe I should say we are in a Nanny state compared to a police state. I just want the people to realize things are heading the wrong way, and sorry to say I have no solution to change the direction we are heading. But the more people who are alert to what is going on, the better we came fight to change the system. Knowledge is power, and power to the people to stand up for what is RIGHT!

I believe the people who visit this forum, will have the strength to stand up together if and or when the time comes. I feel you are all my brother in arms, sitting at our command post spreading the information people need to know. I might be blowing smoke rings, maybe my fears are unjust, but I want to stay alert anyway. just in case what I'm finding is the truth. Maybe with any luck at all I can stand up against the tyranny we maybe facing. Past historical figures have warned us about the evils that could control our government. And it's, I feel my job to police what our government is up to and let others know. Pray that I am wrong, because I am hoping against hope that I am. Because being right this time, will bring me only anguish!

I very much agree that we are headed in the wrong direction. I grew up in the late 60's through the 70's and can remember things like manners, yes ma'am, yes sir, opening the door for females, removing your hat upon entering a building, etc. The only time you heard a swear word in public was maybe if you were walking by the Gay 90's, The Playhouse, Third Base Cafe, etc. Never in school would you have dreamed of talking back to the teacher, now my sons have told me of students openly defying administrators with screams of "fuck you" for all to hear. Why do kids act the way they do? Because we allow it!!! Don't believe that paddling is the answer for all cases, but boy, you don't have to beat to many of'em to get their attention

So I believe it is very much a matter of perspective. If you've been a victim of crime in your neighborhood, you're happy to see the police checking ID's. If you have warrants or you are a career criminal, it should bother you and I'm glad, stay the hell out of my neighborhood. If you occasionally drive after having a few, you may not like DUI checkpoints. However if you've had to pick up body parts because of a drunk driver or had to inform a mother that their child was killed by a drunk driver, you may appreciate that there are those willing to risk their lives to protect you and your children.

Let's start addressing the real problem. I call it the rubber ball principle. Throw the ball against the wall, it's gonna bounce back. Crime rises, the public becomes upset, demand action from police, the police take action, some people are happy, some people feel unjustly accused, some people go to jail, crime reduces for a little bit. Maybe that doesn't make since to anyone else but me, but oh well...

madcow,

I agree that we are losing our rights. We are losing them to lawyers (politicians) and the criminals. The sad thing is that it is often difficult to tell them apart.
I also hope there are better days ahead, and agree that it is time that we commoners stand up and be heard!

Our children are a result of working mothers, not being home to guide and love them. And they are acting out there anger. They have been over vaccinated, fluoride filled and medicated. They are told to report their parents when they are punished for bad behavior. We are no longer the parent the government is. They are taken away earlier and earlier from their parents and placed in our government training camps to begin there brainwashing. The Tv, music, game boys, and the media are now who influence our children. Before that it was the parents, churches, and even grandparents who keep a keen eye on our youth. Children now sit at the computer, alone. When in the past they would be out helping in the garden, the fields, in the store, right along side of their families. Families have been broken. And our children are paying the price, and so is the future of this country. These anger misbehaved children will soon run this country. Yes, we have a group of children that have survived this crazy world we are now living in, and they may have the strength and knowledge to change things in the future. But these are becoming more far and few. Sociality was changed and it’s not been for the better. We have become lovers of money, women worked to get a better house, a better car. But now with the price of everything going up both parents have to work just to eat and to have enough health care to coverage the family. We are at a no win situation, and it’s only snow balling.

im gonna have to disagree with the assumption that it is because of working mothers.Both my parents worked full time jobs when i was a kid and i never acted out in anger. there is a fine line between punishment and abuse. some parents take it way to far.I grew up with video games, and computers, but i still mowed my lawn and during the summer the only time i was in the house was at bedtime. It has more to do with mothers and fathers who dont care about their children or care what they do. You need to be a positive influence for your children and try to guide them down the right path,but not force the path down their throat. The government has little to do with how parents raise their kids.

Enjoyed you post, thanks for the debate. I know I must seen to be looking at the world in a unpleasent light at times. Believe me when I say, I wish I could put the rose colored glasses back on. Would be better on my nerves.

Madcow ... do you have an extra pair of rose-colored glasses I can borrow?

I look on ebay. I hand my head in the sand for a long time, and it's not fun knowing the truth. Like they say, the truth is hard to live with. And it is.

I had a pair, somebody stole'em!!!

amazedbydumb wrote:

I had a pair, somebody stole'em!!!

Now that's funny!

I wonder if someone makes a film you can put on your house windows to make the outside world look better?! I'm getting tired of being bitter!

Thinks are moving so fast, I'm afraid to turn on the news when I first wake up, because of what the headlines might be.

We are in a environmental crisis, economical crisis, constitutional crisis, energy crisis, health care crisis. And also a crisis where everyone is sick, diabetes, cancer, lumpus, and other illness. And if you do a little investigating you will see we are running out of food, due to weather changes and over population. I was eating a sugar free strawberry pie I had made, and I was thinking, what a delicacy this might be in the future.

I have been reading that the truckers are threatening to shut down this country if the price of diesel goes any higher, because they are losing money shipping. Has anyone else heard this, anyone know any truckers, are they indeed saying this? Or is it just a rumor? If so it would not take long to empty the stores.

they wont shut down.....they will just raise the rate of transporting goods.....so in turn everything will go up in price.....people have been dying of diabetes and cancer and many other illnesses for a long long time....these are not new to anyone and they havent just came about because we are in bad time. Things have been much worse in this country and we have bounced back. Think of the Great Depression

I hope you are right.

My sig. line from the place next door read something like this...

"Believe nothing that you hear and half of what you see, otherwise you might just prove how stupid you really are"

Now, it's probably not word for word (typed it one day when I was mad about people shooting off their mouths about something they obviously knew nothing about) but the gist of it is this...(I also don't want anyone here to think this is a personal attack)

We allow ourselves (I've been guilty myself) to be led around by the nose by those (media especially) who report things, say things that they have no real knowledge of, or report their take on. What we forget is many times the reporter or speaker has their own agenda, and not necessarily interested in the truth. I can hardly watch the news because every channel you watch puts their own "spin" to things because they are in competition. Why do people stop to watch a fight? Why do people go out of their way to see a traffic crash or a fire? I believe that we are a society that thrives on sensationalism. Sensationalism sells papers, attracts viewers and listeners.

With the latest "crisis" being the rising cost of fuel, there have been reports of many causes that this is happening. There are those who blame OPEC slowing down production, lack of refineries, hurricanes, himacanes, and everything else in between...The fact is OPEC is producing more oil than ever before and we have more refinery capacity than we've ever had. But every once in a while you hear the truth of the matter (at least it makes the most sense to me)...I must also clarify that this was pointed out to me by someone much smarter about Wall Street than me . Our economy has been for decades, driven by predictions. Now ask yourself "who are the predictors?" These are the "suits" on Wall Street who make money (millions every year) by making Fortune 500 companies BILLIONS of dollars. Entertain yourself and google Fortune 500. See who number 2 and number 3 are? Yep, you got it...Exxon and Chevron. Each quarter for the past several these companies have had to report "record profits". And I believe that they only report what they can't hide, so how much freak'in money are they really making ? Oh, by the way, I shouldn't have to tell you who number UNO is...Sam Walton really was a smart hillbilly wasn't he...

The day before yesterday I heard on the news that the King of Saudi was upset at the PREDICITORS for driving up the cost of fuel. Funny thing was, I only heard it on the ABC nightly news, and only that one report. The predictors have realized that the world is "over a barrel" (pun intended) when it comes to the price of oil. What are the common people going to do? Drill their own well, build their own refinary, and produce their own gas...HELL NO!!! People are forced to pay whatever the price is...

Now, here are several thoughts and even my own prediction...

1. The oil industry sees that the world's dependancy on "them" is about over. The technology to power an engine on water alone is not new, but has been kept out of the mainstream (probably by the big oil companies) and not available to the public. (I saw a documentary on The Discovery Channel about this several years ago). The brilliant man developed this by accident while doing cancer research. In the documentary he was filmed using his garden hose to fill the tank of his car and drive off. He also has developed a cutting torch and filmed him cutting an I-beam. Because the day's of the Big Oil are about over, they must make their millions NOW!

2. The predictors are in bed with Big Oil. If I make 20 Billion, you make 100 Million... Pretty good set-up, huh? Why do I believe this? If it was truely OPEC's fault, if it was OPEC was making Exxon buy oil at these inflated prices, and Exxon was only passing these cost's along to the consumer, how on earth could they continue to set profit earning records? They couldn't, it's impossible...

3. The Republicans (The Bush's and the Chaney's of the world) need an excuse to open the drilling in the Alaskian Territories and in our coastal regions. They have been blocked for years from doing this by the Democrats (Backed by the Treehuggers R US groups ). Understand that I'm not a fan of either side, I'm just tired as hell of going to the damn gas station and feeling like I just had my lunch money taken by the playground bully.

4. And now for my prediction...Someone is going to realize (just like 1976), that the people have had enough. The crisis is nothing more than self-enduced chaos to make someone rich(er)!!! Some poor slob(s) (probably wearing a suit working on Wall Street) will become the "fall guy(s)" for some Billionaire in Texas, and the suit will go to jail. Gas prices will settle to around the $3 mark, Joe Citizen will feel vindicated ($3 is better than $4), and Exxon will continue to make 1 or 2 Billion a quarter until the time arrives that the world no longer needs them because we're driving around (flying probably) in "George Jetson" cars that you fill up with the garden hose or only have to buy one plutonium chip every hundred years .

I just re-read this thing as I was proofing it, madcow...I think you're starting to affect my thinking a little...

I don't think you're too far off,amazed..Throw in the IMF,,lump the democrats and republicans together along with their "conspiracies",,and possibly the NWO,,and I think you'll be real close..

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=protester&sitesearch=#
shameful to laugh after shooting her, this is what we have become!

just re-read this thing as I was proofing it, madcow...I think you're starting to affect my thinking a little...



Scary isn't, I don'like knowing the things I know, the true is hard to live with a times.

Did anyone see the story about a women who spanked her two year old for running out into the street, someone called the police on her, (the nanny state) and she got a ticket. When was spanking your child become a offense that you can get a ticket for? And so goes the police state being put into action.

Unbelievable!!! But let's put the blame where it belongs. LAWYERS AND DO-GOODERS !!! And the rest of society for allowing these kinds of things to happen...

At some point and time, the law abiding folks have got to make a stand... I don't believe it's so much a "police" problem as they only uphold the laws made by the legislators that "we" elect. I'm not sure what is going to be "the straw that broke the camel's back", but let's hope it happens soon...